• Scotty@scribe.disroot.org
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    6 days ago

    For that matter we should start building a much tighter relationship with China overall. They may end up being an ally, as strange as it sounds.

    That’s sounds indeed strange, and it will never become reality. If and when Canada opts for a ‘tighter relationship’ with China, it will only weakens itself. China will use any leverage to bully its so-called ‘allies’ as it has been doing for decades. Canada won’t be an exemption (China’s tariffs on Canadian canola was a good example for this).

    The only option for Canada is a strong diversification of its trade, particularly with democracies in Europe, in the Indo-Pacific, and elsewhere imo.

    • RaskolnikovsAxe@lemmy.ca
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      6 days ago

      Canada’s relationship with China has been destroyed by our allegiance to the US and our alignment with their foreign policy and trade policy.

      Frankly China is much more predictable and much less of a threat to me than the US, and to be honest I don’t believe any of the standard narratives coming out of the US or any of their treasonous backers.

      • Scotty@scribe.disroot.org
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        6 days ago

        Which are China’s allies? Literally all trade partners have increasing deficits, economic and political coercion is widespread, transnational repression has been increasing, China’s interference in domestic affairs and election is strong not only in Canada but everywhere. And that’s just a tiny selection of bad examples.

        Just name one country that ever benefited from a ‘tight relationship’ with China in the long term?

        Which non-Chinese company had ever long-term success in the Chinese domestic market?

        Having said that, the choice is not just between the US and China. Canada must diversify its trade away from both the US and China.

        • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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          5 days ago

          China’s interference in domestic affairs and election is strong not only in Canada but everywhere

          CIA talking point. Only CIA is allowed to determine elections.

          Just name one country that ever benefited from a ‘tight relationship’ with China in the long term?

          The ones where the US hasn’t invaded or created a puppet government in yet? All the US colonies are doing poorly in growth terms. Those trading freely with China are booming.

        • AGM@lemmy.ca
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          6 days ago

          Which non-Chinese company ever had long-term success in the Chinese domestic market?

          Companies: Volkswagen, GM, Tesla, Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes, Hyundai, Apple, Samsung, Microsoft, Intel, Foxconn, Siemens, SAP, IBM, Sony, Panasonic, Coca-Cola, PepsiCo, P&G, Unilever, Nestle, L’Oreal, Nike, Adidas, Walmart, Costco, IKEA, KFC, Starbucks, McDonald’s, Haagen-Dazs, Budweiser, Shell, Exxon, Caterpillar, 3M, HSBC, J.P. Morgan, Goldman, Sequoia, McKinsey, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, J&J, Roche…

          That list could go on for ages. These are just big ones, and there are whole sectors not even touched on.

          Just name one country that ever benefited from a ‘tight relationship’ with China in the long term?

          Okay.

          Countries: ​Vietnam, Pakistan, Brazil, Australia, Russia, Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, Ethiopia, Chile, Germany, Korea, Thailand, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Singapore, Kazakhstan, Argentina, Nigeria, South Africa, Peru, Chile, Angola, Greece, Hungary, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Kenya, Tanzania, Zambia, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran, Oman, Qatar, Algeria, Morocco, Ecuador, Bolivia, Sudan… and so on.

          Seriously, why do you think so many companies have the China market as an essential component of their business, and have done for decades? And, why do you think most countries have China as their number one trading partner? They wouldn’t if they weren’t benefiting, but somehow you have either convinced yourself that you know better than all of them or you’re just posting entirely in bad faith.

          • Scotty@scribe.disroot.org
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            5 days ago

            Can you tell me how even one of them benefits?

            These are just random lists of companies and countries. Literally all the countries, for example, have been showing increased trade deficits with China, while many trade their commodities and raw materials for high-end goods. Especially in Asia and Africa, they are prone to political and economic coercion (e.g., the Hambantota International Port in Sri Lanka, the country’s second largest port, is owned now by China, which is one reason why Sri Lanka’s government lacks de-facto economic independence).

            Workers’ rights violations are widespread in literally all these countries, aggression against its neighbours on land and at sea. Just to name a few examples.

            The ‘bad faith’ posting comes from you. This list is a very bad joke.

            • AGM@lemmy.ca
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              5 days ago

              Random companies? These are all companies that have been doing huge business in China for years. Some have been there for 30 years or more and have China as a huge part of what makes them successful.

              Go read some financial statements yourself. Go read some trade and investment data from countries.

              You just posted one of the most absurdly ignorant statements possible about business and economic engagement with China in claiming that nobody has seen long-term benefits, and now you’re doubling down? It’s completely detached from reality.

              If not for your posting history I would give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re just an uninformed and misinformed person, but people don’t set up sock puppets for good faith activity.

              • Scotty@scribe.disroot.org
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                5 days ago

                The numbers clearly say that there are no long-term benefits from trade and/or economic ties with China, except for China itself.

                • AGM@lemmy.ca
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                  5 days ago

                  I encourage anyone to go do the research for themselves. No need to trust me. They will easily find for themselves how wrong and manipulative the positions you’re pushing are. You are here actively misleading people.

                  • Scotty@scribe.disroot.org
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                    5 days ago

                    What is your research? You’re posting a series of bold claims paired with second-hand intimidation, but no clear, verifiable information.

        • RaskolnikovsAxe@lemmy.ca
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          6 days ago

          I agree that we need to diversify our trade and our economy, in particular economic output.

          But China is the world’s next superpower. We should establish a strong relationship with them. Trade with them. And if needed - and it seems like it might be soon - ally with them militarily against the US.

          Edit - you say

          Literally all trade partners have increasing deficits, economic and political coercion is widespread, transnational repression has been increasing, China’s interference in domestic affairs and election is strong

          And I can’t believe you don’t see that this is exactly what is happening to us with the US, but they also want to destroy us economically and potentially attack us militarily.

    • humanspiral@lemmy.ca
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      5 days ago

      China will use any leverage to bully its so-called ‘allies’ as it has been doing for decades.

      This is a false accusation. The alternative is waiting for loving US capital and policy to be more apparently loving.

      The only option for Canada is a strong diversification of its trade, particularly with democracies in Europe, in the Indo-Pacific, and elsewhere imo.

      Democracies that are determined, like Canada’s, by the CIA. Instead of having “fake democracy” values, value countries that aren’t corrupt. The US colonies aren’t in the list.